Theistic Satanism: Home > Politics > Pushy exorcists > An online exorcism attempt
An online exorcism attempt
(and some very important warnings to all theistic Satanists online)
by Diane Vera
Copyright © 2004, 2009 by Diane Vera. All rights reserved.
- Important warnings to all theistic Satanists online
- Brief summary of a chat with an online exorcist
- The chat itself
- Important lessons
- Knowing a spirit's true intentions?
- An exceedingly dangerous self-fulfilling prophecy?
- Other matters
- Important warnings to all theistic Satanists online
Read this and be prepared.
As of May 2004, there's a very strange Christian who has been approaching Satanists one-on-one via IM or email and trying to pressure them into an online exorcism. He will try his darnedest to scare you into believing that "Satan and all demons hate you and want you dead." He plays lots of head games, such as trying to shame you into having the "courage" to do whatever he wants you to do.
So far, it seems that he targets primarily female Satanists from heavily Christian backgrounds. I suspect that he and others like him are also likely to pounce on any and all new Satanists, with the aim of "rescuing" them from Satanism.
He is also a "Satanic Ritual Abuse" scaremonger. For more about the SRA scare, please read the sites and articles listed on these pages: Refuting the "Satanic Ritual Abuse" witchhunt of the 1980's and early 1990's and "Ritual abuse" and "occult crime" witchhunts. Remember that the SRA scare has been debunked by a lot of people other than Satanists. (See especially the report by FBI agent Kenneth Lanning.)
If you talk to the man discussed on this page, or to someone similar, the conversation may freak you out if you are unprepared -- especially if you're from a hardcore Christian background and still carrying a lot of subconscious Christian programming.
Do NOT regard this man as just another silly Christian whom you can have a little fun with. He is clever and determined, and he seems obsessed with opposing Satan and Satanism.
If he or any similar person contacts you, remember that you do have the right to simply refuse to talk to him. Don't let him shame you into talking to him if you don't want to. But, if you do decide to talk to him, please take the following precautions:
- Do NOT give him any personal information about yourself. (Among other things, there's a strong chance that any info you give him will get blabbed to at least one Christian forum, most likely in a distorted and sensationalistic form. Perhaps it might eventually wind up in a book too -- the man is also a writer, in addition to being a fervent anti-Satanist.)
- Save all emails from him and save logs of any and all chats with him. It is extremely important to save everything he says to you, in the event of trouble later. Please do not even remotely consider having a chat with him without logging it -- no matter how friendly he may seem. He himself keeps logs of his chats with Satanists (and sometimes quotes those logs in public forums, without the other party's permission), so you certainly should keep logs too.
- Do NOT send him hostile or threatening private email or IM's. Remember, threats and harassment are illegal. If you wish to vent rage about him, please do so only in the Theistic Satanism forums (any of the TS forums except T-S-a-o-2), or in other Satanist forums -- without revealing any identifying personal information about him such as his real name, if you happen to know it. Please do not publicize his email address or Yahoo ID either, lest you (1) provoke a potentially illegal barrage of "harassment" from outraged Satanists, and thereby also (2) supply him with still more Satanists' heads to play with.
- Do NOT agree to keep confidential anything he tells you -- especially any shocking personal accusations he may make against the horrible evil Diane Vera, or against any other participant in the Theistic Satanism forums. Please do discuss any and all such accusations against me publicly in any of the following forums, to get the other side of the story:
Personal allegations about forum participants other than myself should be emailed to me privately. I, in turn, will forward the accusations, without your name attached, to the accused person. If that person gives permission, those accusations may then be discussed publicly in one of the above forums too.
If your chats with him have caused you any fears and misgivings about Satanism, please do feel free -- if you wish -- to discuss your thoughts and feelings in either Theistic-Satanists-ex-hard-Xian or Theistic-Satanists-and-others-2. Both these forums have strictly-enforced rules against flaming, so that you can talk out your fears and mixed feelings without fear of ridicule. (Of these two forums, note that T-S-a-o-2 welcomes posts from Christians, whereas T-S-x-h-X does not.)
(Update, April 2009: The online Yahoo groups mentioned above are no longer in service. Instead, if you'd like to relay any news to me about online exorcists, please post a message to me in the general feedback thread on one of my blogs, preferably my WordPress blog.)
Note: If you happen to have any mental illnesses at all, please be sure to read the section of this article titled An exceedingly dangerous self-fulfilling prophecy?, below.
Most "deliverance ministry" folks are fundies. The particular man discussed on this page is not a fundy but a more New Agey sort of Christian. He seems fascinated by "evil" (including serial killers) and seems less interested in leading Satanists to Christ than he is in trying to convince us that "Satan and all demons hate you and want you dead."
I suspect that he is only the tip of an icebarg. We will probably encounter others like him in the future, as the Theistic Satanism forums become better known.
- Brief summary of a chat with an online exorcist
On Sunday, May 30, 2004, Marie RavenSoul, who was then co-moderator of the Theistic Satanism forums, had a several-hour Yahoo Instant Messenger chat with a very pushy online exorcist, whom I will refer to as Mike. Concurrently, she was also chatting with me. When Mike first IM'd her, I suggested that she refuse to talk to him at all except via the forums. However, she was curious and stayed on with him. I then advised her to save a log of her chat with him, which she did.
Mike did not behave like a typical online Christian evangelist. He had an ingratiating manner, flirtatious at times, and gradually got more and more overbearing.
In Mike's chat with Marie, he began by asking a few questions about the history of her involvement with both Satanism and Christianity.
Marie gave some general answers to his questions about her personal history, but avoided giving details. This seems to have frustrated him. Whenever she tried to steer the conversation to a more general discussion of religion, he dismissed this as "off-topic" or "rather a distraction here," insisting that "you, my dear, are my focus at the moment." (Much later in the conversation, after the exorcism attempt, he said that he "focuses on demons..and the damage they inflict" and on "freeing/healing nice girls such as yourself.")
At one point he asked if Marie had multiple personality disorder. She said no. Mike said he had known about 25 women with MPD, "all demonized" too. No mention of any men.
Eventually he asked, "Do you have a guardian?"
He then asked a series of questions gradually leading up to an attempt to pressure her into an online exorcism. First, "How do you think your guardian feels about you?" Then, "hypothetically......lets say you were furnished incontrovertible proof" that "he loathes and despises you"? Then "what if your Guardian told you...in his own words....with his mouth...that he despised you...and wanted nothing more than your suffering and death?" Then "would you want to know ...one way or the other? because if you're interested...we can do just that here and now."
Marie questioned how Mike could possibly know such a thing. He replied that it was "pointless to relate... unless you were interested and could handle the truth."
After some more back-and-forth, he asked, "do you have the courage to hear what he has to say?" He then claimed that he could force Marie's guardian to "tell u himself not only how he loathes u but how he plans to kill you."
He continued to pressure her by saying things like "apparently you are scared" because "otherwise you would go along with my suggestion."
Eventually Marie said, "Okay. Go on." He asked, "whats his name?" She replied, "that should not matter" and he said, "It doesn't."
He then said, "Demon...the one who marie calls Guardian. In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to tell Marie the truth about your intentions" and "answer her questions honestly." Then "go ahead marie...ask him if he hates you...and wants you dead."
Marie actually did try to communicate with her demon friend at that point, but got nothing.
When she mentioned this to Mike, he asked her to tell him the demon's name. She asked why he wanted to know that, since he had said earlier that it didn't matter. He said he needed it in order to get past the "safeguards" that the demon had "because you willingly serve Satan."
After he tried unsuccessfully a few more times to get her to tell him the demon's name, Marie said "you know Satan's name don't you?" and challenged Mike to try to command Satan Himself. He said he couldn't, due to "spiritual laws."
The conversation continued for quite a while after that. At one point he said, "you have one or more demons in you that hate your appearance.....your smell...your essence." (Later, after the chat, Marie remarked to me that this claim of his was a blatant attempt to push the button most women have about their looks.)
He then told Marie about his encounter with another theistic Satanist, Martha, with whom he had gotten further.
Mike continued to go on and on about how Marie's guardian supposedly hates her and wants her dead, and about how Satan supposedly wants her dead too. Unlike the typical pesky Christian, he didn't want to talk about hell. Rather, his claimed concern was about the spirits' alleged intentions toward Marie in this life.
Marie tried to point out how, in the Bible, "God" was the one who committed all manner of atrocities. As usual, Mike dismissed this as "off topic."
He then started to ask some personal questions, e.g. about Marie's sex life, but quickly lost interest when she told him that she was interested in sex only in the context of a committed relationship -- on which point he refused to believe her.
The remainder of the chat consisted mainly of Mike bragging about his abilities as an exorcist.
- The chat itself
Below is a complete log of the chat between Mike and Marie, with all names changed except for Marie's. The screen names for both parties have also been changed. (Note: If I inadvertantly picked a screen name that happens to be yours, please email me and I'll gladly change it.)
If you don't have time to read the whole thing now, you might wish to skip down to Important lessons, below the chat log.
mike01rq3k: hello marie...please excuse the intrusion out of left field.....but I'm a new member on the theistic satanist board (although I'm a Christian) and I was just reviewing some of your posts on the board. May I make a brief inquiry about something you posted...if you're not too busy?
raven8h45r9: Okay, sure.
mike01rq3k: thanx for the consideration
mike01rq3k: it is appreciated
raven8h45r9: no problem
mike01rq3k: in your first post to the group, you gave a little of ur background...satanist for 10 years...christian for 4...and then a return to satanism
mike01rq3k: I realize (better than u may know) how complex that chain of events must have been for you
mike01rq3k: so in the interest of brevity......
mike01rq3k: 2 questions
mike01rq3k: if you will
mike01rq3k: what were you before you were a satanist for 10 years (if anything)
mike01rq3k: what caused you to abandon satanism for christianity
mike01rq3k: nutshell version, I realize
mike01rq3k: but that will give me some insight, perhaps
raven8h45r9: I wasn't brought up in any religion till I was 9 and then I was baptised catholic
mike01rq3k: was there a parental shift of some sort that caused you to be baptized at 9 (I realize that I have fibbed, thats three questions...hehehehe)
raven8h45r9: no, my mom was urged to baptise me by an aunt who returned to the church.
raven8h45r9: so you are a christian?
mike01rq3k: a lapsed catholic, actually
mike01rq3k: is this a bad time?
raven8h45r9: no, It's fine.
raven8h45r9: so what made you leave catholicism for awhile?
mike01rq3k: well, I never left...officially...just lapsed into a lifestyle devoid of any real religion or faith
mike01rq3k: booze, gambling, and all that it entails
mike01rq3k: no room for God
mike01rq3k: I was agnostic at best
mike01rq3k: atheist at worst
raven8h45r9: That happens to a lot of people I am sure.
mike01rq3k: it seems that way
mike01rq3k: I, better than most, understand all that is entailed by leaving satanism for christainity...and vice versa
mike01rq3k: on a spiritual level
mike01rq3k: why did u leave satanism after 10 years
mike01rq3k: that is my main interest at the moment
raven8h45r9: It was just a bad experience with a coven I was in.
mike01rq3k: althoug everything about your story fascinates me
mike01rq3k: did the coven come after you after you left?
raven8h45r9: oh no, not at all.
mike01rq3k: isnt that somewhat unusual?
raven8h45r9: I wouldn't think so. If someone leaves they just leave it at that I am sure,
mike01rq3k: actually, that is almost never the case
mike01rq3k: guess you were one of the lucky ones
raven8h45r9: It depends, I mean people leave for a variety of reasons. Just like you might leave your church. But people just have to acceot that. I find that christians are the persistant ones.
mike01rq3k: when you went thru ur christain period...ever encounter/experience a deliverance?
mike01rq3k: of yourself or another?
mike01rq3k: were you ministered to yourself?
mike01rq3k: well, I know full well how difficult that is
raven8h45r9: why is that?
mike01rq3k: why do you ask?
mike01rq3k: that its not difficult?
mike01rq3k: or how I know it to be?
raven8h45r9: how you know it to be
mike01rq3k: because over the last 6 or 7 years I have helped people who are attached by demons
mike01rq3k: I have done perhaps 100 deliverances
mike01rq3k: in a narrow field
mike01rq3k: and it is difficult for everyone involved
raven8h45r9: what draws you to this kind of thing?
mike01rq3k: you are special indeed marie
mike01rq3k: you ask all the right questions
mike01rq3k: It found me
mike01rq3k: I didnt even believe that angels/demons were real
mike01rq3k: I thought it was a colorful allegory
mike01rq3k: my, how I have been enlightened
raven8h45r9: yes, there are many different things going on out there.
mike01rq3k: I was so oblivious
mike01rq3k: things started happening to me after I had a near death experience
mike01rq3k: a serious head injury
mike01rq3k: I knew a girl for several years
mike01rq3k: are you familiar with MPD hun?
mike01rq3k: are you multiple (I hate to pry)
raven8h45r9: no, definitely not.
raven8h45r9: I know because I am studying psychology
mike01rq3k: well, anyway this girl I knew as "normal"
mike01rq3k: was multiple
mike01rq3k: well, after the accident, almost immediately, her "alters" started talking to me
mike01rq3k: and then her demons approached me
mike01rq3k: I assumed the demon was an angry "alter"
mike01rq3k: then I met about 25 more girls/women with mpd over the next year or 2
mike01rq3k: all demonized
mike01rq3k: I didnt know what the hell was going on
raven8h45r9: what is making you think that people who have MPD are demonized? There are clinical reasons for it.
mike01rq3k: but their demons all were fascinated with me for some reason
mike01rq3k: trust me marie
mike01rq3k: I know that
mike01rq3k: I know more about mpd than most shrinks
mike01rq3k: and more about demons than most anyone
raven8h45r9: what makes you so knowledgeable?
mike01rq3k: thrust upon me
mike01rq3k: followed up by research (in an attempt to figure out what the hell was going on)
raven8h45r9: but why you and not someone else?
mike01rq3k: the books I read..the people I spoke to...merely confirmed what I was already experiencing
mike01rq3k: ah.....GREAT question
mike01rq3k: I have asked myself that a zillion times
mike01rq3k: at least
mike01rq3k: for some reason God favors me
mike01rq3k: its pretty bewildering
raven8h45r9: But god has no favourites
mike01rq3k: but he does grant gifts in varying degrees
mike01rq3k: some I have in abundance
mike01rq3k: like discernment
raven8h45r9: that is a great one to have.
mike01rq3k: I can always differentiate between an alter and a demon
mike01rq3k: few can
mike01rq3k: so few minister to them
mike01rq3k: I think discernment is more valuable than most any gift
raven8h45r9: I agree
mike01rq3k: plus, discernment helps me ...guides me...allows me to approach charming strangers like yourself
mike01rq3k: my life has been eventful since all of these things have entered my life
mike01rq3k: to say the least
raven8h45r9: I can imagine
mike01rq3k: I get the feeling that your life has been very eventful too
mike01rq3k: and I do believe you can imagine
mike01rq3k: we share some common experiences, after all
raven8h45r9: I think spiritual expereinces of any kind good or bad affects ones life.
mike01rq3k: w/o a doubt
mike01rq3k: thats one reason its nice talking to you
raven8h45r9: There are many different religions and so many experiences
mike01rq3k: its always nice to converse with one who knows
mike01rq3k: versus one who conjectures
mike01rq3k: many religions...yes
mike01rq3k: but really, I dont concern myself with any but christianity/satanism
mike01rq3k: because those two really matter
mike01rq3k: in colatteral ways
raven8h45r9: why do you say that?
mike01rq3k: well, they are diametrically opposed on the one hand
mike01rq3k: yet dependant on each other in a sense
mike01rq3k: a shared history
mike01rq3k: I noticed you shifted between christianity and satanism
raven8h45r9: what is your opinion of Islam?
mike01rq3k: I didnt see you becoming a Buddhist....or Hindu
raven8h45r9: yes, but many shift between different ones, that is just my experience.
mike01rq3k: true..many do
mike01rq3k: but you dont
mike01rq3k: and you, my dear, are my focus at the moment
mike01rq3k: other banter...about Islam and such...although fascinating...is rather a distraction here
mike01rq3k: if I may speak plainly
mike01rq3k: w/o intending to offend
raven8h45r9: i am just curious as to why I am such an interest to you?
mike01rq3k: who knows...precisely?
mike01rq3k: I feel that I know you in a way
mike01rq3k: and my fascination with satanism/christianity...and the battle...the push/pull...never fades
mike01rq3k: plus, like I said...discernment takes me where it will
mike01rq3k: as you know
raven8h45r9: I believe that one must be happy in the path that they are on, for some it is christianity and for some it is Satanism and for others it is another religion.
mike01rq3k: well stated
mike01rq3k: but sort of off topic
mike01rq3k: you ahve waffled
mike01rq3k: why is that?
mike01rq3k: what happened in your coven to make you leave...to embrace the polar opposite...faith wise?
raven8h45r9: differance of opinion.
mike01rq3k: hardly likely
raven8h45r9: we all believed different things and it wasn't working
mike01rq3k: the last thing I want to do is offend you...after you've been so kind...so I'll accept that explanation
mike01rq3k: do you have a Guardian?
raven8h45r9: well it is hard for any church or group to go on if its members cannot agree.
mike01rq3k: you didnt leave your coven
mike01rq3k: you abandoned your faith
mike01rq3k: by my count...at least 3 separate times
raven8h45r9: I left the coven first though.
mike01rq3k: you left a master that you served for 10 years....
mike01rq3k: to join the service of his sworn enemy
mike01rq3k: I think its fair to say...you're conflicted
raven8h45r9: but i came back. And now I am where I was meant to be.
mike01rq3k: so do you have a Guardian?
raven8h45r9: I think most of do.
mike01rq3k: its not a trick question marie
mike01rq3k: how do you think your guardian feels about you?
mike01rq3k: can you characterize the relationship?
raven8h45r9: He cares aboutme and is there for me.
mike01rq3k: really....how sure are you of that?
raven8h45r9: very sure
mike01rq3k: hypothetically......lets say you were furnished incontrovertible proof to the contrary
mike01rq3k: that he loathes and despises you
mike01rq3k: then what??
raven8h45r9: But he doesn't. I know him well.
mike01rq3k: proof you couldnt dispute
mike01rq3k: just tell me what then?
raven8h45r9: If I knew anyone dispised me whether it be a friend, or whomever, I would have to reevalute my relationship to that person.
mike01rq3k: thats an extremely fair response
mike01rq3k: thank you for your candor
mike01rq3k: I am a bit taken aback
mike01rq3k: what if your Guardian told you...in his own words....with his mouth...that he despised you...and wanted nothing more than your suffering and death?
mike01rq3k: would you want to know ...one way or the other?
mike01rq3k: because if you're interested...we can do just that
mike01rq3k: here and now
raven8h45r9: and I would be extremely interested in how you could have me come to this kind of information.
mike01rq3k: its simplistic
mike01rq3k: yet pointless to relate...unless you were interested
mike01rq3k: and could handle the truth
mike01rq3k: not MY truth
mike01rq3k: THE truth
raven8h45r9: don't you think I would know how my gurardian would feel about me?
raven8h45r9: just like you know how your family and friends feel about you?
mike01rq3k: well....thats a trick question
mike01rq3k: I know how your guardian feels
mike01rq3k: say the word...and he'll confirm your fears
raven8h45r9: how would YOU know how he feels about me?
mike01rq3k: well.....I think you sorta know the answer to that
raven8h45r9: and what fear? I have no fear?
mike01rq3k: but you dance around the subject
mike01rq3k: do you have the courage to hear what he has to say?
mike01rq3k: its a simple question
raven8h45r9: I don't need to put him to any kind of test.
mike01rq3k: I asked alot of you
mike01rq3k: its ok
mike01rq3k: hes breathing a huge sigh of relief....lol
raven8h45r9: I am very interested to know how you could know the feelings of my guradian.
mike01rq3k: c'mon marie
mike01rq3k: what could be more fair....more compelling
mike01rq3k: he will tell u himself
mike01rq3k: not only how he loathes u
mike01rq3k: but how he plans to kill you
mike01rq3k: just thot u might like to know the truth
mike01rq3k: in his own words
mike01rq3k: what more could one ask for?
raven8h45r9: Kill me?
mike01rq3k: we need only ask
mike01rq3k: why would he acknowledge such a claim...if it werent true?
raven8h45r9: don't you think that if he wanted to kill me he would have done it by now?
mike01rq3k: no...how little you understand their nature
mike01rq3k: and their plan
mike01rq3k: I seek to give you a rare glimpse at the truth
mike01rq3k: in ur guardians own words
mike01rq3k: thru gritted teeth
mike01rq3k: so to speak
raven8h45r9: And how could you do such a thing? can you make him lie? I think not.
mike01rq3k: of course not
mike01rq3k: but I can make him tell the truth
mike01rq3k: it seems youre not up for that tho
mike01rq3k: I know its scarey
raven8h45r9: scary? I am not scared.
mike01rq3k: what you dont know can hurt u here
mike01rq3k: apparently you are scared
mike01rq3k: otherwise you would go along with my suggestion
mike01rq3k: after all, like u said, I cant make him lie
mike01rq3k: heres your chance to expose me as a fraud
mike01rq3k: why not go for it?
raven8h45r9: Okay. Go on.
mike01rq3k: whats his name?
raven8h45r9: that should not matter.
mike01rq3k: it doesnt
mike01rq3k: Demon...the one who marie calls Guardian
mike01rq3k: In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to tell Marie the truth about your intentions
mike01rq3k: answer her questions honestly
mike01rq3k: go ahead marie...ask him if he hates you...and wants you dead
mike01rq3k: ask him what you will
mike01rq3k: he will answeer
raven8h45r9: I am not getting anything
mike01rq3k: why not?
mike01rq3k: doesnt he normally respond?
raven8h45r9: I don't hear anything.
mike01rq3k: In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to loose your lips and answer
mike01rq3k: Guardian, answer Maries questions
mike01rq3k: ask again
mike01rq3k: ask him if he hates you
mike01rq3k: and all humans
mike01rq3k: call him by name
mike01rq3k: when you address him
mike01rq3k: demand an answer marie
mike01rq3k: you have the right to know the truth
mike01rq3k: answer her creature
mike01rq3k: christ commands it
raven8h45r9: I am not getting anything.
mike01rq3k: what do you attribute that to
mike01rq3k: doesnt he normally answer u?
raven8h45r9: Sometimes, I don't always expect an answer every time I ask him things.
mike01rq3k: tell me his name marie.....please
raven8h45r9: why in the world would you want that. You said it doesn't matter
mike01rq3k: hes being evasive
mike01rq3k: his name would free his lips
mike01rq3k: whats the harm?
raven8h45r9: but if you can talk to them, shouldn't you know his name?
mike01rq3k: no....I'm not a mind reader, after all
mike01rq3k: and I thought you werent scared
raven8h45r9: I 'm not scared.
mike01rq3k: hes resisting telling u the truth.....he has some safeguards because you willingly serve satan
mike01rq3k: tell me his name...and his protection will be gone
mike01rq3k: he will tell you the truth
raven8h45r9: what protection?
raven8h45r9: you act as if anything you say he has to listen.
mike01rq3k: he has protection when his name is unknown by me
mike01rq3k: to hide
mike01rq3k: were I to know his name...he would speak
raven8h45r9: well you know Satan's name don't you?
raven8h45r9: talk to him.
mike01rq3k: oh, hes there...and listening...and squirming this whole time
mike01rq3k: hes not satan
raven8h45r9: but Satan is my guardian too
mike01rq3k: are you afraid to tell me his name...for fear of hearing his intentions?
raven8h45r9: you can ask him anything you wish to.
mike01rq3k: is he present now to speak to me?
mike01rq3k: I know satan isnt
mike01rq3k: but your guardian is
mike01rq3k: and hes sorta trapped
mike01rq3k: give me his name...and we'll free him
mike01rq3k: to answer you
raven8h45r9: Ask Satan, believe me he is with me all the time.
mike01rq3k: well, at least you tried part way
mike01rq3k: I guess that knowing a truth...as I mentioned...would be unnerving
mike01rq3k: I do understand
mike01rq3k: if you ever really want to know the truth...in the future...I will assist you
mike01rq3k: open invite
raven8h45r9: You act as if you know something that I don't know. I mean come on, I would not be able to tell you what your friends feel about you.
raven8h45r9: I am inviting you though
raven8h45r9: I said I would listen
mike01rq3k: empty rhetoric from a scared little girl...and I dont mean to be insulting
mike01rq3k: just that I understand
raven8h45r9: I said I want to hear it from Satan
mike01rq3k: he doesnt work that way
raven8h45r9: if you want to talk to him feel free
mike01rq3k: there are spiritual laws that govern the earth
mike01rq3k: you know that
mike01rq3k: you have a Guardian that resides in you that hates you and wishes your death...and you are unprepared to hear him tell you that
raven8h45r9: but since I worship him and follow him, if you ask him as your did my guarduian he might respond,
raven8h45r9: how in the world would you know that?
mike01rq3k: well marie.....I would if I could...thats not how it works
raven8h45r9: you say you know something about my guardian but yet you don't even know his name.
mike01rq3k: if its not enough to hear it from your own guardian....then you are not ready yet
mike01rq3k: its fine hun
raven8h45r9: He only gives me comfort, not hate.
mike01rq3k: he deceives you
mike01rq3k: you seek comfort away from reality
mike01rq3k: hes like a drug...he soothes as he harms
mike01rq3k: you're content to be swept away
raven8h45r9: harms? in what way?
mike01rq3k: lol......are you that dense marie
mike01rq3k: he HATES you
mike01rq3k: and wants NOTHING more than your death and suffering
raven8h45r9: and you know this how?
mike01rq3k: he harms u in every way that you allow him to
mike01rq3k: I need not convince you as to how
mike01rq3k: I made a fair offer
mike01rq3k: to hear it frokm his lips
mike01rq3k: you shrunk from the task
mike01rq3k: and I do understand ur fear
raven8h45r9: you do need to convince me as you are the one that wants me to hear it.
mike01rq3k: ur wrong there
mike01rq3k: I tried to help a nice girl
raven8h45r9: and why do you care?
mike01rq3k: but only if she was desirous of the truth
mike01rq3k: you're not there yet
raven8h45r9: I know the truth.
mike01rq3k: to answer the "why" question....
mike01rq3k: I dont like to see anyone suffer
mike01rq3k: and I do believe you are a sweet girl
raven8h45r9: but I am not suffereing I am happier now than when I was a christian
mike01rq3k: who deserves happiness
mike01rq3k: Listen marie....I dont wanna convert you
mike01rq3k: <---lapsed catholic
mike01rq3k: remember??? lol
raven8h45r9: so what kind of christian as you now?
mike01rq3k: I just wanted you to be able to make an informed decision as far as ur guardian...and satan...but I cant do it absent any rudimentary assistance from you.
mike01rq3k: I tried
mike01rq3k: and all was not wasted
raven8h45r9: but I did allow you to
raven8h45r9: but then you refused to go to Satan
mike01rq3k: u still fascinate me...and I lovbe talking to you
mike01rq3k: I didnt refuse to go to satan
mike01rq3k: it doesnt work that way
raven8h45r9: and who says?
mike01rq3k: I didnt make the rules hun
mike01rq3k: who says?
mike01rq3k: you wont like the answer....lol
mike01rq3k: vanquished demons have told me
mike01rq3k: many times
mike01rq3k: in detail
mike01rq3k: your master knows me very well
raven8h45r9: so you like to talk to demons?
mike01rq3k: in a sense...I suppose I do
mike01rq3k: a means to an end
mike01rq3k: I know you know Kheyl...Martha?
mike01rq3k: I undertook a similiar exercise with her
raven8h45r9: and what happened?
mike01rq3k: her Guardian....phaemon......was unable to hide as yours was
mike01rq3k: Martha was more willing to assist in finding the truth
mike01rq3k: the demom admitted his hatred of her...and the fact that he wanted her dead
raven8h45r9: so what did she do?
mike01rq3k: he begged her for forgiveness
mike01rq3k: and cowered...shrieking
mike01rq3k: as he was compelled to tell her the truth
raven8h45r9: but what did she think of it?
mike01rq3k: to say that it blew Martha away...well, that would be an understatement
mike01rq3k: she knew it was true
mike01rq3k: she was shaken up
mike01rq3k: we talked for days on end
mike01rq3k: and, ultimately, she chose to ignore the facts
mike01rq3k: satan has a very efficient support system...lol
mike01rq3k: satan "punished" phaemon
mike01rq3k: vanquished him
mike01rq3k: and gave Martha a new, more fearsome guardian
raven8h45r9: and how do you know this?
mike01rq3k: she told me
mike01rq3k: we were very close
mike01rq3k: but...like I said...she took a hiatus
mike01rq3k: and reinverted herself for satan
mike01rq3k: how ironic
mike01rq3k: and sad
raven8h45r9: and how do you see your god?
mike01rq3k: off topic sweets
mike01rq3k: for another discussion
raven8h45r9: if we can discuss mine we can discuss yours as well.
mike01rq3k: lapsed catholic...heheheh...no fundy preaching here
raven8h45r9: now I know him very well.
mike01rq3k: somehow I doubt that
raven8h45r9: I know the bible
mike01rq3k: you shrink from the truth, in general
mike01rq3k: you proved it here
raven8h45r9: you know the blood of Jesus and all that
mike01rq3k: so does ur guardian
mike01rq3k: he was trying to disappear before it touched him
raven8h45r9: you talk like he is afraid of it.
mike01rq3k: terrified would be a better word
raven8h45r9: no not at all
mike01rq3k: wrong again
mike01rq3k: someday, if you're ever ready, I'll prove it
mike01rq3k: I dont use biblical verse
mike01rq3k: I speak with the confidence of one who knows
raven8h45r9: yeah the bible verses, I know them well.
mike01rq3k: if you were desperate...would your guardian definitely come?
mike01rq3k: then summon him now...with a sense of urgency
mike01rq3k: after all, your life is at stake hun
raven8h45r9: but many have asked of your god and he does nothing.
raven8h45r9: Nothing in the name of Jesus
mike01rq3k: diversionary tactic
mike01rq3k: did I mention that the life at stake was yours marie?
raven8h45r9: you think it is funny?
mike01rq3k: I think that your tactics are funny....ina sad kinda way
mike01rq3k: I apologize
raven8h45r9: that is one thing that always bugged me about christians, is that they believe everyone is going to hell but them and they don't even seem to care.
mike01rq3k: forget hell
mike01rq3k: forget christians
mike01rq3k: forget satanists
mike01rq3k: me and you marie
mike01rq3k: two people
mike01rq3k: one who cares about your well-being now
mike01rq3k: not in the afterlife
raven8h45r9: but isn't that the most important thing? the afterlife?
raven8h45r9: this life is but short after all
mike01rq3k: even more important than being happy...free...and safe now?
mike01rq3k: not for me
mike01rq3k: guess I'm a poor Christian
raven8h45r9: I have never felt as happy as free and as safe as I do now.
mike01rq3k: oh well
mike01rq3k: how can I argue with that?
mike01rq3k: you've declined testimony from the only witness that counts
mike01rq3k: hopefully, someday you'll ponder...and re-visit the issue
mike01rq3k: and my offer
raven8h45r9: but I asked you to ask Satan but you don't seem to want to do that.
mike01rq3k: I'd LOVE to
mike01rq3k: but it doesnt work that way
raven8h45r9: I mean come on let's just try it.
mike01rq3k: spiritual laws...remember?
mike01rq3k: This isnt a board game...or a parlour game marie
raven8h45r9: but first of all, you said that you did not need my demons name, right?
mike01rq3k: well, Martha wouldnt tell me phaemons name...yet it worked because on some level she was cooperative...and that allowed the compelling of the truth
mike01rq3k: you're too afraid to rise to that level of commitnment
mike01rq3k: so his name would do the trick, in lieu of your cooperation
mike01rq3k: whats in a name sweets?
raven8h45r9: but isn't that easy to say?
mike01rq3k: try this
mike01rq3k: ask your guardian what happened to phaemon
raven8h45r9: I mean if all this is true what you say, then can't you as a christian just cammand him in the name of Jesus and it has to work?
mike01rq3k: and if hes afraid of a similiar fate
mike01rq3k: yes...youre right...if I were dealing with someone who craved freedom...and the truth
mike01rq3k: thats not u marie
mike01rq3k: in the case of a willing participant, I can't command anything
mike01rq3k: just mistakenly thought u might be curious about ur guardians...and satans...true plans for you
raven8h45r9: but the guy possessed in the bible didn't crave it either. Jesus just commanded him to leave.
mike01rq3k: he craved it
mike01rq3k: the geresene demoniac craved freedom
mike01rq3k: and he approached jesus...remember?
mike01rq3k: and jesus asked the demon its name...or have u forgotten?
raven8h45r9: yes he did.
raven8h45r9: and he said his name was legion.
mike01rq3k: for we are many
raven8h45r9: because they were many
mike01rq3k: as there are in you
raven8h45r9: but if that was true that this happened and that Jesus could get the name out of the person, could you not as well , I mean he said people would do greater things even more so than what he did?
mike01rq3k: not only could I
mike01rq3k: I have
mike01rq3k: with the willing
mike01rq3k: that doesnt apply to ur situation hun
mike01rq3k: like I said...ur vile master knows me very well
mike01rq3k: ask ur guardian about that when hes not too busy cowering....
mike01rq3k: and peeing on himself
raven8h45r9: You don't seem to have much respect.
raven8h45r9: It says in Jude doesn't not, not to slander celestial being?
mike01rq3k: should I respect a creature whose sole purpose is to torture and destroy people I care about
mike01rq3k: please be serious marie
mike01rq3k: is that the kind of person YOU are?
raven8h45r9: and why do you care about me?
mike01rq3k: because I believe you are decent...sweet...and special
mike01rq3k: maybe you dont even remember that about yourself anymore
raven8h45r9: and what about your god? Look at all the things he has done, killed thousands in the flood, babies even , dashed them against the rocks, and there is much more.
mike01rq3k: blah blah blah
mike01rq3k: off topic
mike01rq3k: for a later discussion
mike01rq3k: you are a ggifted master of escape
raven8h45r9: but you accuse my Satan of wanting me dead, isn't it god who killed the masses
mike01rq3k: satan wants YOU dead
mike01rq3k: all else is off topic now
mike01rq3k: are you a nice girl anymore marie?
raven8h45r9: and look at what the christians did to the people years ago the torturous methods when people didn't convert.
mike01rq3k: or are you too far gone?
mike01rq3k: is the demon ghost-writing your responses now?
raven8h45r9: Listen, it seems to me that if we are going to talk about Satan we need to talk about god , I mean you said they were interconnected.
mike01rq3k: I am only talking about satan as he applies to you
mike01rq3k: I'd gladly do the same with God
raven8h45r9: okay lets do that
mike01rq3k: as he applies to u in this context
raven8h45r9: I want to talk about god now
mike01rq3k: He loves you....and yearns for your return
mike01rq3k: even in your darkest times...when you were hurt...terrified....begging for help[
mike01rq3k: he was there
mike01rq3k: cradling your head
raven8h45r9: he loves me does he? More like he would burn me along with Sodem and Gomoreh
mike01rq3k: even when ur body was hurt by others
mike01rq3k: He never abandoned you
raven8h45r9: and he would throw me into a pit of hell like everyone else that doesn accpet his son.
mike01rq3k: He gave man the greatest of all gifts...free will
raven8h45r9: I mean really, who deserves that kind of punishment
mike01rq3k: some choose to use that gift to hurt others...often brutally...as you know
mike01rq3k: he weeps to see it
mike01rq3k: and He protects the innocents
mike01rq3k: and heals
raven8h45r9: really, you could have fooled me. He ordered many deaths if I can remember correctly.
mike01rq3k: Satan uses his influence on man to make him use his free will in the injurious actions...to self or others
mike01rq3k: I'm generalizing
mike01rq3k: time constraints
raven8h45r9: Satan? It was god who demanded people to kill for him.
mike01rq3k: Off topic
raven8h45r9: and what about dashing babies against rocks
raven8h45r9: and ripping open pregnant women
mike01rq3k: you have one or more demons in you that hate your appearance.....your smell...your essence
mike01rq3k: and he /they laugh maniacally about how u depend on them
mike01rq3k: their counsel
mike01rq3k: its hilarious to them marie
raven8h45r9: oh really? Interesting, as I have never felt better about myself
mike01rq3k: thats the fact that seems more pressing now
mike01rq3k: than a biblical discourse
mike01rq3k: maybe God has you feeling better than ever
mike01rq3k: in spite of your attempts to hurt Him
mike01rq3k: and yourself
raven8h45r9: I have no desire to hurt anyone.
mike01rq3k: have you ever hurt anyone?
raven8h45r9: but why don't you want to talk about this wonderful god
raven8h45r9: we all hurt others at some point but not deliberately. Even a slight remark can hurt people and we all make that mistake sometimes .
mike01rq3k: so you've NEVER intentionally hurt anyone??
mike01rq3k: Is that the claim you wish to stand by?
mike01rq3k: maybe u left ur coven because you didnt want to hurt anyone...anymore
raven8h45r9: My coven didn't hurt anyone.
mike01rq3k: have you ever fucked someone you didnt care about....while you were a satanist?
mike01rq3k: or are u some sort of saint in satanist clothing?
mike01rq3k: and ur a theistic satanist...correct?
raven8h45r9: I care about people and see sex as a beautiful thing between 2 people in a committed relationship
raven8h45r9: yes I am a theistic Satanist
mike01rq3k: well, somehow this earnest conversation turned into farce
mike01rq3k: perhaps we can try again sometime
raven8h45r9: a farce?
raven8h45r9: and why is that?
mike01rq3k: ur little sex disclaimer
raven8h45r9: that is what I believe
raven8h45r9: I don't believe it should be misused.
mike01rq3k: maybe thats what u believe
mike01rq3k: thats not hjow you've acted
raven8h45r9: I act the way I believe
mike01rq3k: always perverting the truth with cleverly worded responses
mike01rq3k: a source of pride, for u I imagine?
raven8h45r9: I just say things how they are.
mike01rq3k: ah...if only that were so
mike01rq3k: this would be a far more meaningful interaction
mike01rq3k: I've enjoyed it, nonetheless
raven8h45r9: well I tried to talk about god but you didn't want to
mike01rq3k: its not that I didnt want to
raven8h45r9: then why?
mike01rq3k: inappropriate diversionary tactic at this juncture
mike01rq3k: I discussed the tenets of God that matter...as applied to you
raven8h45r9: but if you are a christian isn't it your job to spread the gospel?
mike01rq3k: or...maybe more properly...to the girl you used to be
mike01rq3k: I'm sort of a freelancer
mike01rq3k: my job here is done
raven8h45r9: what job?
mike01rq3k: its been a sincere pleasure hun
mike01rq3k: tongue in cheek marie
mike01rq3k: based on ur comment
raven8h45r9: you act as if you know me>
mike01rq3k: I do
mike01rq3k: maybe some day you will get to know me
raven8h45r9: you don't know me
mike01rq3k: whetever lulls you into a sense of serenity
mike01rq3k: I thank you for taking time to talk to me
mike01rq3k: it is much appreciated
raven8h45r9: and if you want answers to some of your questions feel free to post them in the forum.
mike01rq3k: well,,.....lol...I would love to
mike01rq3k: seems there arent enough hours in the day
raven8h45r9: but you have spent a lot of time talking to me.
mike01rq3k: plus, diane has this nasty habit of not posting my posts
mike01rq3k: (after conferring with u, of course)
mike01rq3k: well, I was drawn to talk to u
mike01rq3k: I spent more time than I really had...but cherish each moment
mike01rq3k: you are very special, as I've mentioned
raven8h45r9: why do you say that?
mike01rq3k: because I knew it coming in
mike01rq3k: you've only enhanced the notion
mike01rq3k: I hope our paths diverge again
raven8h45r9: I hope that you take care of yourself
mike01rq3k: and you as well
mike01rq3k: we are two of a kind that need to take special care in that regard...eh?
raven8h45r9: Have you ever been into Satanism?
mike01rq3k: no...not as a member
mike01rq3k: I've dealt more with those who manage to extricate themselves
mike01rq3k: and those who do harm to others
mike01rq3k: I try to intervene....to affect changes in the courses of events
raven8h45r9: every religion has good and bad people in them.
mike01rq3k: of course
mike01rq3k: but satanists tend to capture my special interest
mike01rq3k: and, based on the ones I meet....do great harm
mike01rq3k: usually to the weak, and innocent
raven8h45r9: where do you meet them?
mike01rq3k: i strive to affect that pattern
mike01rq3k: everywhere hun
raven8h45r9: The Satanists I have met are wonderful people.
mike01rq3k: party line...niiice
mike01rq3k: we both know better
mike01rq3k: dont worry, I'm not trying to secure any evidence or whatever
mike01rq3k: I merely go wher He leads me
mike01rq3k: today it was you
mike01rq3k: <---lucky me
raven8h45r9: who god?
mike01rq3k: sometimes satan/his minions approach me first
raven8h45r9: why would that be?
mike01rq3k: even tho satan knows the harm/damage I've done to his efforts.....
mike01rq3k: he is eternally arrogant
mike01rq3k: and seeks to recruit me
mike01rq3k: always a gross miscalculation, btw
mike01rq3k: but u gotta appreciate his tenacity
raven8h45r9: why would he want you if you hate him?
mike01rq3k: ask Martha
mike01rq3k: she understands
raven8h45r9: why don't you tell me yourself?
mike01rq3k: well....he is very intelligent...ur vile master
mike01rq3k: he knows the value I would have if I served him
mike01rq3k: isnt that somewhat clear?
mike01rq3k: thats why he hangs on to u with such determination btw marie
mike01rq3k: he knows how much good u could do in the service of God
mike01rq3k: he cant have that
mike01rq3k: thats another proof of how special you are
raven8h45r9: I have heard this so many times before
mike01rq3k: how satan keeps after you...even when u were gone
mike01rq3k: sorry to be boring and redundant
mike01rq3k: cant alter reality
mike01rq3k: (except you apparently
raven8h45r9: but don't you believe that people feel drawn to specific gods?
mike01rq3k: btw hun...if I had done the deliverance on you...you would still be serving God
mike01rq3k: too bad
raven8h45r9: it shouldn't matter who does a deliverance, if it is true as you say any christian could do it.
mike01rq3k: well, sadly many are ill equipped
mike01rq3k: I am special myself
mike01rq3k: like u
mike01rq3k: I am very efficient in doing His bidding
mike01rq3k: (said with all modesty)
mike01rq3k: anyway....I should let you go lovely marie
raven8h45r9: so do you go to church?
mike01rq3k: not for a while
mike01rq3k: well....its a rather long, boring story
mike01rq3k: I know I serve Him well
mike01rq3k: I need not attend church to do so
raven8h45r9: but it says in the bible to meet with fellow believers
mike01rq3k: what am I doing now hun?
raven8h45r9: I meant, fellow christians.
mike01rq3k: this serves my purpose
mike01rq3k: and, apparently, His as well
raven8h45r9: what purpose?
mike01rq3k: who knows?
mike01rq3k: isnt that why its soooo delicious?
raven8h45r9: do you beleive that Jesus is the son of God?
mike01rq3k: its not a job...its an adventure
mike01rq3k: well, my thoughts on that are somewhat complex
mike01rq3k: maybe another time
raven8h45r9: do you believe that he rose from the dead?
mike01rq3k: of course
mike01rq3k: thats a fact
mike01rq3k: you believe it too
raven8h45r9: do you know that his story is the same as gods before him?
mike01rq3k: so what? What matters is what is real
mike01rq3k: he died...and rose
mike01rq3k: and thats the cause of eternal chagrin for demons like ur nameless guardian
mike01rq3k: 'who lurk in the shadows
raven8h45r9: no, no cowering.
mike01rq3k: what adjective do you prefer?
mike01rq3k: they all apply in abundance
mike01rq3k: pretty priceless, actually
mike01rq3k: your demon has spent this entire time worrying he was gonna be phaemon-ized
mike01rq3k: doesnt get much better than that!
mike01rq3k: just enjoy it a bit too much sometimes
mike01rq3k: my bad
raven8h45r9: enjoy what?
mike01rq3k: the pain and embarassment of the demons
mike01rq3k: and ur mentor
raven8h45r9: You don't think that you actually make they fel that way, do you?
mike01rq3k: well, indirectly
mike01rq3k: God is the deliverer
mike01rq3k: I am merely His instrument
mike01rq3k: we could ask ur guardian...but he seems to be a demon of muteness
raven8h45r9: oh no he is fine.
mike01rq3k: as fine as any sniveling coward could be
mike01rq3k: har har har
mike01rq3k: imagine his added hatred...being tormented by a human....a class of race that he inherently despises
mike01rq3k: doesn't get much better than that...does it ?
raven8h45r9: You have the wrong opinion of him
mike01rq3k: pegged to a tee
mike01rq3k: old whats his name....
raven8h45r9: oh yeah him...
raven8h45r9: But I really do want you to talk to Satan
mike01rq3k: maybe someday
mike01rq3k: when its on His terms
mike01rq3k: I would welcome the opportunity
mike01rq3k: I know old goat-head would welcome the opportunity
mike01rq3k: pride and all
raven8h45r9: well you are not taking your own bible buy its word.
mike01rq3k: I am weak marie
mike01rq3k: and a sinner
raven8h45r9: don't slander celetial beings
mike01rq3k: yet He uses me
mike01rq3k: and you're right
mike01rq3k: I gom astray with this banter
mike01rq3k: please forgive me
mike01rq3k: I sometimes give in to the opportunity to torment them
mike01rq3k: its not good...and not right
raven8h45r9: believe me you don't torment them.
raven8h45r9: they just think it is funy sometimes
mike01rq3k: I know better
mike01rq3k: they live in abject terror when one such as me is around
mike01rq3k: but I am dead wrong to indulge my dislike for them
mike01rq3k: sorry again
raven8h45r9: you said your interest is in those that were christians that became Satanists?
mike01rq3k: well, it all interests me
mike01rq3k: but I've helped satanists who have fled covens
mike01rq3k: and those who seek mfreedom
raven8h45r9: many people flee churches too.
mike01rq3k: I know
raven8h45r9: who is there to help them
mike01rq3k: my focus is rather narrow
mike01rq3k: it focuses on demons..and the damage they inflict
mike01rq3k: and freeing/healing nice girls such as yourself
mike01rq3k: if the time ever comes when they seek freedom, of course
raven8h45r9: freedom? There is freedom in leaving christianity.
mike01rq3k: I cant dispel that notion
mike01rq3k: but its really not in my main focus
raven8h45r9: oh yeah that power in the blood stuff again.
mike01rq3k: I know first hand what satan and his minions do
mike01rq3k: and I try to do my part
mike01rq3k: btw---better than I did in the last few minutes when I gave into my baser instincts to taunt
mike01rq3k: there is great power in His blood
mike01rq3k: maybe someday you will remember...and seek its protection
raven8h45r9: I am fine the way I am really.
mike01rq3k: thats really fine...I enjoyed the convo
raven8h45r9: I am happy in my path and don't wish to leave.
mike01rq3k: and you're just as special to me
mike01rq3k: I seek NEVER to convert
mike01rq3k: merely instruct
mike01rq3k: when possible
mike01rq3k: and be a help if asked
raven8h45r9: but haven't you been able to see that the power that you think you have does not work.
mike01rq3k: OMG no silly
mike01rq3k: I've dispatched literally hundreds of demons
mike01rq3k: many more powerful...and more cunning than ur guardian
mike01rq3k: but its always with the willing
mike01rq3k: and the open minded
raven8h45r9: so if he is not as powerful, shouldn't you have been able to dispel him from me?
mike01rq3k: rarely the opposite...even Martha had to comply somewhat to see the truth
mike01rq3k: she will never be the same
mike01rq3k: so something WAS accomplished there
mike01rq3k: the rules sweets...the rules
mike01rq3k: cant vanquish the willing
raven8h45r9: why did you pick on Martha
mike01rq3k: ask her
mike01rq3k: we're firends
mike01rq3k: I love her actually
raven8h45r9: but you wanted her to think that he demon hates her?
mike01rq3k: she knows it silly
mike01rq3k: it understandably upset
mike01rq3k: as it might u some day
raven8h45r9: but she is still with him, is she not?
mike01rq3k: she said phaemon is gone
mike01rq3k: replaced by a nastier version
mike01rq3k: still with satan?
mike01rq3k: yes...for now
mike01rq3k: but shes been changed
raven8h45r9: is that how she described him? Nastier?
mike01rq3k: who knows how that will play out?
mike01rq3k: he doesnt want the phaemon treatment
mike01rq3k: satan is a very cruel master
mike01rq3k: I gotta run hun
mike01rq3k: waaaay overdue for a few things
mike01rq3k: but youve been worth every minute
raven8h45r9: well take care.
mike01rq3k: you too
mike01rq3k: thankks again for ur courtesy...and time
raven8h45r9: I hope you have a great night.
mike01rq3k: you too
mike01rq3k: perhaps we will talk again
mike01rq3k: I would welcome that, should it occur
raven8h45r9: maybe next time you could speak to Satan.
mike01rq3k: maybe next time we'll avoid this
mike01rq3k: and speak as marie and Mike
mike01rq3k: how old ru btw?
mike01rq3k: before I blast off
raven8h45r9: how old would you say I am?
mike01rq3k: just pondering
mike01rq3k: maybe 38 or so?
raven8h45r9: but I don't mind being 38 for this one time.
mike01rq3k: ever the little secret keeper
mike01rq3k: later hun
- Important lessons
Observe Mike's generally melodramatic, hard-sell manner, and observe the long buildup before the attempted exorcism, including many leading questions and many repetions of the claim that "your guardian hates you and wants you dead." This leads me to suspect that, had Marie cooperated more fully and wholeheartedly, he might indeed have been able to make her "hear" her guardian saying the predicted things via sheer hypnotic suggestion.
It seems to me that a lot of alleged "spirit contact" is really just some part of the person's own subconscious mind talking -- and is, therefore, subject to programming and manipulation. In Marie's case, I'm convinced that she has had genuine spirit contact too. However, it can be hard to tell the difference, and I am quite skeptical of anyone who claims an infallible ability to tell the difference.
I wonder if all of Mike's "deliverances" are preceded by scary-sounding speeches about what he can make the demons say and do, or about the alleged intentions of the demons toward their human hosts. If so, then perhaps the "information" he gets from "demons" is a self-fulfilling prophecy?
On the other hand, let's consider the possibility that Mike's "deliverances" really do involve more than just hypnotic suggestion amd taking advantage of subconscious Christian programming. Suppose they really do involve forcing spirits to say and do what Mike tells them to do. In that case, there's still no guarantee that the spirits' forced "confessions" are in fact truthful -- any more than a confession extracted under torture from a human is reliable. Martha believes that her chat with Mike involved more than just hypnotic suggestion, but she believes that her "guardian" was forced to say things that were NOT true.
So, whether genuine or not, this episode drives home the importance of NOT putting too much faith in channeled information of any kind.
I would also suggest reading up on what the more respected occult writers have to say about what a "guardian" is. See, for example The Holy Guardian Angel: a tricky little devil by Ed Richardson, on Phil Hine's site.
If we assume that Mike's claimed powers are real, then it is probably NOT a good idea to tell him such things as the name of your guardian (or what you believe to be your guardian). Marie's response -- challenging Mike to take on Satan Himself -- was a good one.
- Knowing a spirit's true intentions?
Now for the all-important question: How can we really know what a spirit's true intentions are? That's a very good question, and not just for Satanists.
In particular, how do Christians know that their god loves them? There is plenty of evidence to the contrary. (See Bible-sanctioned cruelties and other Biblical nastiness and Heaven, hell, "love," and "justice" on the Counter-Evangelism Resource Page.) Also, in a few different parts of the Bible, either Yahweh or Christ is referred to as a "shepherd" and his followers as "sheep." Now, a shepherd does care for his sheep, but to what end? Not out of the goodness of his heart. What happens to sheep? They get fleeced and/or eaten.
Most tellingly, Christianity promises eternal life yet forbids any attempt whatsoever to contact the dead. How convenient.
Back to the question: How can we know what a spirit's true intentions toward us are? Alas, the only honest answer is that we can't know very much about any spirit's intentions. Our knowledge of the spirit world is necessarily very limited.
If you choose to have anything to do with any god or spirit at all, the best you can do is to judge by results in your life. For example, does the spirit give you advice that consistently turns out to be good?
I personally wouldn't even try to ask a spirit questions about things I have no way of verifying, such as the afterlife. You have no good reason to trust the answer even from a spirit whom you have good reason to believe is benevolent (or at least benevolent toward you). Remember, even a lot of loving parents teach their kids to believe in Santa Claus. If you form a symbiotic relationship with any kind of spirit, then let it be for this-worldly purposes only, or because you feel "called" by a particular deity. Don't base an entire cosmology on it.
Also, keep in mind the difficulty in telling the difference between genuine spirit contact and various psychological phenomena. Many "spiritual" experiences do have a natural explanation. (See Spiritual experiences and the brain.) Much "spirit contact" is really just your own subconscious mind talking.
Remember that Satan -- unlike the Christian god -- does not ask for blind faith in things like "inerrant" scriptures or channeled information. Satan challenges us to think for ourselves and to question everything. Satan invites us to better ourselves and "become as gods" (a goal that can be approached only asymptotically, but worth pursuing) rather than be mindless slaves. To that end, we need to be honest with ourselves about what we can and cannot know.
So, spirit contact in general is something that should be pursued only with caution, if you choose to pursue it at all. Don't rush into it. Take the time to do plenty of study of magick and occult lore first. It's also a good idea to read up on psychology.
But the claim that Satan and/or your guardian "hate you and want you dead" is clearly nonsense. If it were true, then all or most Satanists would have very short life spans. Well, it's true that Satanists are predominantly young. But there are plenty of older Satanists too, and there are also plenty of ex-Satanists who have converted to various other religions.
As for the attitude of demons toward humans, they vary. Some do seem hostile to humans, while others seem to be not only friendly but genuinely helpful. See the descriptions of various demons in traditional grimoires such as the Goetia, for example. See also About Demons.
Many Satanists have had beneficial interaction both with Satan and with various demons -- not just in the short run, but also in the long run. Feel free to discuss this issue in the Theistic Satanism forums.
For more about the question of what we can and cannot know, see The here-and-now principle in theology on the Church of Azazel site.
- An exceedingly dangerous self-fulfilling prophecy?
Even if Mike's claimed powers are NOT real, his exorcism attempts have the potential be extremely harmful psychologically.
In a post to a Christian forum, he claimed that all or most Satanists will eventually be driven by demons either to commit suicide or to kill other demonized people. This claim is flatly ludicrous. There do exist quite a few long-lived, law-abiding Satanists, and there also exist plenty of ex-Satanists who have converted to various other religions.
However, the Satanist scene does attract some very unhappy people and some mentally ill people. They don't seem to be the majority, but they do exist.
If such a person is already feeling suicidal -- or murderous -- then a harangue from the likes of Mike just might be enough to set that person off. Worse yet, in that case, would be an incomplete exorcism attempt, such as Mike did with both Marie and Martha. It can be disturbing enough even for a psychologically normal person, let alone a mentally ill person.
Mentally ill Satanists do not need to be told that Satan wants them dead, or that Satan wants them to go around killing people. They need to be encouraged to stay in touch with material reality and to avoid getting too carried away with spirituality of any kind.
If you have any mental illnesses, then please, for your own sake and for the sake of everyone in your world, please simply refuse to talk to any online exorcists at all, no matter how "friendly" they are.
If you decide to convert to Christianity of your own free will, that's fine with me. If you then seek a "deliverance," that's okay with me too. Your religion is your own business. But please do not allow any online exorcists to even try to terrorize you into it.
- Other matters
I first ran into Mike on May 29, the day before his chat with Marie. On that day he tried to post, to two of our forums, a message about his exorcism attempt with Martha (as mentioned in his chat with Marie). Since the post said, "I apologize if I seem to have violated any implied trust here," I emailed Martha asking if it was OK with her for the post to be allowed through. She told me that she did not wish to discuss this matter in public yet, so I rejected the post on grounds that it violated our rule against personal harassment of forum members. (The post was allowed through in one of our forums later, when Martha finally went public with her side of the story.)
Mike subsequently made various accusations against me in a Christian forum where Martha was a participant.
At one point he claimed to have documented proof that I was "trafficking in human slavery." His "proof" turned out to be an article I wrote on consensual BDSM 20 years ago.
He also claimed that the purpose of my renunciation rite is to make people feel that they are "trapped in Satanism," when in fact anyone who would feel "trapped in Satanism" by that rite is apparently unaware of the existence of other religions besides Christianity and Satanism, and thus is clearly not yet ready to perform the rite. On my page about the renunciation rite, see the notes on intellectual preparation, including quite a few warnings against performing the rite prematurely. On the other hand, if you make a vow of longterm dedication to Satan, I'm inclined to believe that Satan will hold you to it. Hence my Theistic Satanism website contains even stronger warnings against performing a dedication rite prematurely -- in contrast to the tendency of many Christian evangelists to pressure people into a dedication to Christ ASAP. (See Pacts and self-initiation.) In short, I certainly do not want anyone to feel "trapped in Satanism."
More will be posted here later about further developments in this story.